Edited by Grou Serra
Interview prepared with Agata Siemionow as part of the Illinois Institute of Technology Dean's Lecture Series. Photography Credits: Illinois Institute of Technology
Grou Serra In one of you lectures, you say that you're not ideologically driven.
Armand Mevis Did I say that ? [Laughs] Oops!
Grou Serra Then the question is, how do you approach the translation of content to graphical language?
Armand Mevis First of all, it would be good of course to understand what maybe this word "ideology" means. Or what it probably could mean, or what it means to everyone. And, you think that's a little bit strange to say that. If I hear it also like that without the context in which I said it, I also don't know how I actually meant it. But it would almost suggest as if there is nothing let's say that drives the work. Well, of course, the work is driven by things, and by ideas. And in that sense, probably also by ideologies. I just spoke with students, here, and what I just tried to phrase, while I actually left the room, was that, how I tried to help them was probably very opposite of what I will present tonight. Because what I try to do in my discipline, as probably everyone within their own discipline, is actually to question the discipline itself. Just to question the conventions, to look for the borders, of what is still, let's say, a solution that we can accept, or not. Can we cross these borders, can we actually come up with new solutions. But they very much happen within the discipline itself. It can be about very technical things; you can question those, why is a book a book? What is, maybe, the spine of a book? But it can also be, what is the function of a cover? Or how does a poster work? Can a poster replace a book? All those kinds of questions that come to mind when you do your work. But I think that by questioning those things, you try to add something to the work you do. And maybe that's where, still I think, to do that, maybe that can also be seen as some kind of ideology. Is that a clear answer for you? Because I mean, I try to answer it, but if you say "Well, actually can you clarify this more, or better" or whatever.
Grou Serra When we compare your work to conceptual art - where the idea overcomes effect, you seem to take the opposite approach - one where effect is the main intention. Is this how you approach your work?
Armand Mevis No, I always start with the concept. I try to, first of all, I think you try to understand the situation, the context. As you probably also do, you also analyze maybe an area. So you try to understand what you actually deal with. And then you try to distill an aspect, that you think like "Oh, this is actually interesting" or this is something that maybe should be highlighted. And that can actually lead to, let's say, a concept. An approach. The only thing that I think is then the real activity is to make sure, that that idea somehow, can also be read. You know, that you can find a transformation and a formalization of such an idea that people also understand what you actually had in mind. And I think that's where also form becomes really important because you cannot, neglect that as much as the conceptual artists neglected it. You know, I can be really inspired by also the formalization of conceptual art, just in its simplicity, because it's a full concentration on the concept itself, within graphic design, there are also other aspects to address. And then I think form is also a way to manifest maybe something. So you cannot just skip all the forms and just have the bare content there in front of you. I think you need something to trigger also something, by form.
Grou Serra You mentioned a strong influence of art in your work. Could you comment specifically about what type of art, and which artists appeal to you the most? And why?
Armand Mevis It is. Actually, I have... Of course it's everyone, but I have a very troubled relationship with my own discipline. And that is not because I don't like it, or I don't like, let's say, other work by other graphic designers. But I think I value so much, maybe the purity of an idea. And for instance in conceptual art, that it's really difficult to sometimes look at your own work, and actually know that there were actually ideas, maybe inside that work, which are very meaningful to you. But for an audience, they probably don't care. So then sometimes, you start to think about your work, more in a negative way. That maybe it misses sometimes this kind of... The possibility to be so, pure and clear. I think I like a work a lot when a work makes you think, about something, in a new way. I have more problems with work where I can see that it's for instance, very well made, very, aesthetically maybe, beautiful. I almost consider that as something that everyone should be able to do. Of course it's not the case. But, then I still prefer work where I think it makes me think about things, you know? It questions something, and it doesn't mean that a painting cannot do that for you, but, I'm always a bit suspicious when the form takes over, maybe let's say, a potential meaning. And that's why I.. I feel very connected to work by artists like instance someone like Ed Ruscha [Edward Ruscha, b.1937]. There's this work, I think you probably also know it, the Royal Road Test [1967], where with... I think it was Jason Williams, maybe another artist, they did together, and there was also a third artist, they went on a road, in a desert, had a royal typewriter machine, threw it out of the car and then, the great thing is, I think, this act of very serious way of investigating what happened to the typewrite when it was thrown out of the car. How many meters? Did it roll? They make pictures as if they are all kind of police investigators. So, I think it's this combination of having an idea, but maybe also kind of the humour. But it's a very dry humour, you know? And I think a lot of good conceptual art has actually a lot of humour. And it's staged as if it's very serious. That's where I feel very connected to.
Grou Serra Some of your work appears to be extremely straightforward - almost not designed. Can you talk about the specificity of such work?
Armand Mevis Difficult, because you refer to probably something and now you don't say what it is.
Grou Serra Well, maybe we can take this book [Wiel Arets-Bas Princen, ed. Hatje Cantz, Ostfildern, 2015] as an example.
Armand Mevis I think you can act in different ways. And you can engage yourself also in different ways with a project. And I think you also understand what some projects need, for who it is meant and how you can actually... What your role can be in that process. If I think about myself, well, I already practice for thirty years, that's quite long. But in the beginning of my practice, each project was a way to manifest a lot of ideas. And that means also that maybe a lot of these projects suffered from too many ideas and too much ambition. By now, I think, I'm much more aware of that, and I'm also more capable of understanding what you sometimes should do, but also what you sometimes should not do. And especially about a book like this, I think it was very clear what needed to happen, and I could also understand what my role could be here. And, I think that this book would be a horrible book, when the graphic design, or the graphic designer also wanted to manifest himself, let's say, too much, in a formal way. Then I think it would kill the book, it would kill the project. But there are other projects, and you probably will see that also tonight, where I know that a strong, formal gesture, and maybe also a very expressive gesture, is very needed. And then I think I'm also fine to use that opportunity and also to come up with a plan for that.
Grou Serra And in the case where it's very straightforward, do you see that as a commentary on contemporary culture?
Armand Mevis I think that's too... I must say; for instance tonight, I will not speak about this book. Because I think, you also see that in some projects should do... it hits on things that kind of discuss something. So actually you use these projects as examples to clarify a little bit the way how you try to do your work. So it's not that I have, let's say... There is not just one way. And it's also not a commentary. For me, it's actually quite a kind of freedom to operate in different ways. As if you can dance, on a stage, but sometimes you do that really kind of quiet, but sometimes when you have to do something else, you let yourself go. But I think it's this range, where it's also nice that you're able to have a voice, that you can have a high range of high tones, and low tones and you can just use them whenever you need them. So, it's not really a commentary on contemporary graphic design.
Grou Serra The way people digest information throughout time continually changes, how does it impact your work, conceptually?
Armand Mevis Well, I suffer a lot from all the information that comes to me. And I think that we all probably do. Because everything is information and somehow you also try to avoid it. I don't know. There is so much that comes to you whenever you go on the street, to an airport, there are everywhere, this information. There are ads, there is signage. Everything tries to attract your attention when you open a magazine there are many things happening at the same time. And I think it's very confusing. And somehow maybe I try to not see it, but I don't know if that's a good way to deal with it. I also see that there's a lot of information that doesn't even go through the hands of designers, or let's say, designers that I would probably consider as maybe good designers. Of course, all the information is processed somehow by people, but not always with the intention to either solve things better for you, but they are there. Maybe to sell something or to do something else. But I never feel some kind of attraction to have a role there. And I think a lot of graphic designers probably don't feel also so much attraction to operate there; where I actually think that maybe good design could do something meaningful, but it's very hard to enter the area, for designers, where things become very commercial, or very kind of... a lot of things are a stake. Do you understand a little bit what I'm pointing at, or?
Grou Serra Can you talk about the tools you are using as graphic designers?
Armand Mevis The tools. Well, let's say my laptop, my computer is my tool. But I think I have a problem in my brain, somehow, that I forget how software works. So, whenever there is, let's say, for instance photoshop, I don't know, you probably know photoshop or illustrator, or... I always have to ask, how do I do this? And then someone at my studio explains it to me, but the next day, I don't know it, I forgot it. And I think there is some kind of a hole somewhere. And Linda [Van Deursen] makes also fun of me. I have also difficulty recognizing typefaces, which is of course not really great for a graphic designer [Laughs]. But if I cannot just... If you put me somewhere on a TV show, and I would have to say what kind of typeface is this, I think that any graphic designer would probably be able to say "Well, it's this". But, I don't know. I see that they are different, but I forgot the name [Laughs]. So that's why I'm actually quite happy to work with a very limited amount of typefaces. I think yesterday, funny enough, I was at an art school in Los Angeles, and they showed me a list of all the typefonts, all the fonts that the designers at school were making, and already in 2015 there were more than 600 typefaces designed by the students. So imagine over the course of fifty years how many typefaces are there. And I'm very happy that I can almost count them on two hands. And still, I don't recognize them [Laughs]. So what I want to say, actually, and maybe that's what I tried to say, now that I think about it, is that, I think it's actually always very very nice, and also very interesting to work with a small set of tools, and also work within, let's say, a small amount of restrictions. Because, I think when you know, when you set the things, when you define the game, and it's clear, then you can also try to play them out. To distort, or not to respect them anymore. But I think you need to have some kind of clarity, and that's why I always like it when... The amount of possibilities when you first try to limit them. And then you start to play your game. Yeah, it's very interesting. I'm not a sportsman, but here I go [Laughs].
Grou Serra In your monograph, you use images as content more so than text. How did you mediate between graphic design and content in such a situation?
Armand Mevis Well, it's an interesting example. I think, as a book, also when we made that book, and a lot of people saw the book, they were, well you could say either disappointed or maybe annoyed, because you make an image book, but at the same time these images are, let's say, not accessible, or at least they don't lead you to the original project. But of course it was intentional. One starting point was, that we.... If we would do a book about ourselves, we could not become immediately another kind of designer. When we work with material of other people, an artist, photographer, you always try to do something very specific, for that work. So, we thought that we also had to do something specific with that work. And, what I like also about the things that you produce, that you can also almost see it as material, you know? That once it's printed, once it's done, it becomes, let's say, you can almost reduce it to colors, to forms, as if you're a kind of textile designer. And, we liked it to see if we were able to make, let's say new work, with old work. Just to make new collages, new images where the work itself actually acted as rough material. As if you make new images from leaves of the tree. You know, all these fragments are basically, as if those were leaves of a tree and you try to make new kind of compositions and, it's very formal. But there is a counterpart, in that it's... those are these kind of accounts and stories about our relationship with clients. And they are very honest, very direct, and sometimes also for the people we talk about, not always very friendly towards them. So there is also kind of... There are two things happening at the same time. We were not interested in making a book where we would actually show a project and explain the project. Tonight, I will not use that trick, you would probably leave after five minutes, once you got it. You'd think "Oh this probably goes on for a full hour". So, tonight I will explain something.
Grou Serra In your book, actually in one of the interviews, you mention that you cater to a lot of your clients wishes - sometimes to the point where it creates unwanted results. Can you comment on the issue of control you have as designers, but also on dealing with unexpected results?
Armand Mevis Well, you know, the relationship with the client is of course a difficult one. And, I think you also have that within architecture, for instance, if you have analyzed the situation and you think you had this fantastic idea, this is the solution for everything, and you present it to your client, and he doesn't get it, and he doesn't like it or whatever, then I'm completely... I don't know, I don't like my work anymore, I don't want to go to my studio anymore! [Laughs] I hate everything and everybody! [Laughs] With time, I start to see a little bit the point of the client, and you of course also kind of see possibilities to respond to that. But, I don't know, you have to ask the question again, because I think I only answered it partly. Can you say it again?
Grou Serra Well, the question is just a comment on the issue of control.
Armand Mevis Well, yeah, yeah. So, actually, I brought it in, because I think that first, you know what you want to do, so actually, you control the situation. But once the person on the other side of the table actually doesn't like what you propose, then in a way you lose control. And then it becomes difficult, I think. Sometimes you are able to find a good solution, and still do something that you kind of still like, and support. But sometimes you can also end up in situations where you just want to finish the work. Because, you know there is no way that you ever convince that other person of maybe the direction you had in mind. And then, in a way, you give up control. You know, there should always be something in each project that allows you to engage yourself with the thing. And, if something has been taken out, and you cannot engage yourself anymore with it, it becomes really hard to finish a project. And there are projects that fail. Tonight, I will also show a project that - in our opinion, kind of failed. Probably not for the commissioner, and maybe also not for the audience. But you are also your own critic. So, actually, it doesn't matter if someone is happy, it doesn't matter that for instance you are finally paid for the work, because that's all not important when the work is not the work that you actually had in mind, that you wanted to make. Than I'd rather do something else. Then I'd rather read a book, or... But I never have time to read books anyway, so... [Laughs]
Grou Serra Do you see the relationship between the size of your office and the quality of work you produce? Do you have an ambition to expand? Or you would rather stay with hands-on in all the projects?
Armand Mevis I don't know. In my dreams, I would like to have a huge office. Be very important! [Laughs] But the reality is, when I go to my studio, there's Linda - my partner, two designers who are sisters, and once a week someone comes to do the administration. And that has... Of course something to do with the way how you organize your practice. We don't do anything, ever, to make it easy for people to find us. That's of course the first problem. If you dream at night about this huge office, and many people running around, and they all work for you, and your kind of... That's the problem if you don't know anything to make yourself known. But on the other hand, I also like it that we are a bit hard to find, you know? For people who, let's say, like graphic design, who have an interest in that, I think people who let's say, go to a book shop, they see a book, maybe they are interested to see who did it. Maybe at another moment they find another book, they find the same name. So at a certain point, people start to know you. I think, if someone knows me - or knows us, and wants to work with us, there are ways to find us. And right now - and I think that's a huge improvement, although I don't think it ever, kind of, gave us more work - now we have a web page, with a phone number and email address. But no other information, but it's already one step in the direction of being more accessible. But it's of course deliberate. Because, I really like to do my work, but I really don't like to actually, to be busy during the week with representing that work for instance in a website. To provide the images, to write text... Maybe because it's already my work, you know? I also hate it, to manage my... The pictures of, let's say, my children, and my wife, and... I have this whole stack of images in my computer, complete big mess, but I can not even think of ever starting to edit that! Because I already do that on a daily basis, always editing, always... I cannot do it for myself. So I can also not have a website, I don't think so. Because then it becomes, somehow, the website starts to dictate also my week. If our office was big enough, then of course you've got to start to think, oh you find someone who becomes the editor of the website. But then you need more money, and then you need more clients, but since we have no website, we don't have those clients to bring that amount of money to have that people working for us. You know, it's like, if you have some kind of difficult relationship sometimes, on practice, you also have a difficult relationship with everything, you know? With your colleagues, who, maybe get all the work that you actually wanted to do. You have problems because then you find ways to say "Well, but that's not a job for me, so it's actually fine" It's always struggle. But in the end, I think, you're the master of your own situation. Also, let's say, sometimes you have moments where suddenly it seems as if you've got so much work that you think "Oh! Now we can start to hire a lot of people." But then, maybe half of it happens, and the other half doesn't happen, and then in the end, you can still do it with five people. But before, for at least fifteen yeas, I think, Linda and I did it all with the two of us. But I'm also quite happy not to do everything anymore myself. So also for a book like this, once everything is clear, then also the type setting, and the corrections, and loading the images, and... I'm very happy that there are people who can do that for us.
Grou Serra How do you see the role of graphic designers changing - if it isn’t already - with new technologies, and the relevance of having such a profession today?
Armand Mevis I think it's changing a lot, for a lot of graphic designers. I think it's... in a way, I think the practice becomes much more interesting, today, because designers have abilities to operate in more fields. The field of, for instance, publishing, curating, editing, writing, image making, typesetting. While, let's say, in the past - when I was a student, and actually started out - those disciplines were much more, kind of, separated. You could never think of you, as a designer, ever being able to publish, for instance. Because also the costs for these kinds of activities were so high. But today, also my students, they publish books, and they print those books. Because a lot of facilities are much more accessible, so you can actually make books, which look as if they are printed in full color, offset, fantastic paper, perfect binding, but the print run is only a hundred. And, it's not bad for them to make a book in just a number of a hundred, you know? It's not that it's less important to them. But, it allows them to be operational in different fields of interest. And I think that makes the profession richer. I think at the same time, maybe it also marginalizes a little bit, let's say the discipline of graphic design, because I know that a lot of these projects they happen in a very small circle of people, in a very small scene. Only those who know about that scene also know about that amount of work that is being done. But, let's say, for the rest of the world, it's completely invisible. But I went to... for instance, I just came now from the [38:32] book fair. And that's a place where, let's say, the book is celebrated. And you see so many fantastic and beautiful books, done by also great graphic designers. But it's almost like a niche market, I think. I also see, and I think that's also an opportunity, maybe not for me, because I have this hole in my brain, but I see a lot of potential for a new generation of designers to be much more in control of new media, moving image., which it also expands, the discipline, you know? So let's say also, the internet is no longer static. I think the internet becomes much more time based. And movie making becomes much more part of the practice. So, there are more ways how stories can be told, so... not just a book. But it's a book plus maybe a version on another device, like iPhone, iPad. We experience that now today already much more, you know? You work on a magazine - we have been working now on a magazine for the documenta, south, and the next question was immediately, we need to make it accessible also for iPhones, iPads, websites... So the printed version immediately also becomes a digital version. And I think that those who invest in that, in learning how to program, to be more in control of that, they have the best chances for the future. And, I think that I still come from, let's say, the world of print making. That's my background, print. But I'm very much intrigued by the potential of all these new, let's say, media. But I don't feel yet that I know what I can do there. But it interests me. But we collaborate a lot with other designers who have the knowledge, we collaborate with them. So it's not that we kind of put it aside.
Grou Serra How has your work been distributed and received over time. Did the new digital media influence on this process?
Armand Mevis Well, let's say, this book will be there in a hundred years time. If you now make an iPad version of this book, in two years time, the devices have changed, and it's gone. The information is gone, we have no longer access to that information. So I think those are two completely different things and I don't think that one thing, let's say, replaces the other thing. I think they all coexist next to each other. And I think as soon as we probably would give up making books, then I think we make a huge mistake. Because we will lose a lot of knowledge and information of a time. But also, different devices have different possibilities. You can make a building, you can do something and you can make it immediately go viral, and you make sure that the whole world knows about it. With a book, well, as Wiel knows, it looks like a very simple book, but it took us maybe two years to make this book, so that's a much slower process. And expensive, because you need a photographer, you need to travel, there are conditions of weather and time. And before this whole project is there, where the full content is there, where everything is sorted out and where everything is a hundred percent perfect, that takes a lot of time. But, the good thing maybe about other media, is that sometimes these things can go really fast, and it doesn't matter so much. But it has another purpose, I think. Yeah. That was your list? I don't know if that's long enough for your interview, or that new questions came up while speaking?
Wiel Arets I would like to ask you this. You worked with several museums. MCA is in Chicago, you mentioned the Stedelijk. Would you say, it has maybe to do also with leadership? Where in maybe the Stedelijk, from Sanders, and from, whatever, was a very strong voice of a leader. And, you know, the position of the Stedelijk is clear when you go, and everything is in that sense, strong. And you, in your case, graphic design is extremely important for the Stedelijk. And where, the MCA at a certain moment, the leadership is slightly different. The leadership of the Stedelijk Museum and the history of the Stedelijk Museum, where it's a voice, it's a strong voice, that's what we want, and a more democratic, I would say, leadership at the MCA.
Armand Mevis It's also a difficult question.
Wiel Arets It's why I ask it.
Armand Mevis We were appointed by the Stedelijk Museum, by another director. There is a new director now. But let's say, everyone who was actually there, when we started as the designers for the new Stedelijk Museum, after their transformation and new building extension, everybody left. In these past two three years. There is a complete new team of people. For them, we maybe represent something of the old, of the past. So, I must say that there is already a huge difference between how we worked under the first director or under the second director. With the first director, we were in touch with, we could send emails to each other and discuss things, also when something, let's say, well, was not so happy, then I could send an email. Now we don't have that access anymore to the director. So, if you talk about leadership, that's where leadership actually slowly starts to disappear. And of course it also starts to make you insecure, because you take that almost, in a way, somehow, a little bit also as a critique. That fact that a new team, maybe doesn't in the same way try to involve you, but prefers to create more distance, is, I think, is a kind of a critique. And while you actually think that the museum would benefit from a stronger bond between the designer and the museum, I think that both, well not actually us, but I think that the Stedelijk could benefit more involving us more than they maybe want to do, now or in the future. It's also strange because you create of course an identity where, as I said already, it falls maybe apart when you hand it over to someone else. I don't think that they are fully aware of that, but I also think that they maybe even think it's a challenge to see what would happen if you would hand it over to another designer. Because it sounds maybe, interesting to see what could come out of that.
Wiel Arets Is that, one of the questions which was asked today, the client, the definition of the rules to a client.
Armand Mevis I think so, yeah.
Wiel Arets And it's extremely important for you, to know who your client is, and the momentum you have a relationship with your client, you know that you client can be beneficial for you and for the work that you present.
Armand Mevis The strange thing in the world of museums I think, and in maybe art, is that, I also understand it, but it's that as soon as someone new steps in, then that person wants to articulate the program also probably through graphic design. So I also understand that a new director comes in and maybe has another idea about how to articulate that. But, the strange thing is, for companies, that never happens, you know? When you have a brand, and the CEO changes, it's not suddenly that apple gets a new identity, you know? They are much more aware that consistency has big value. And I think that these situations in museums, in that sense, are very vulnerable, and that actually also, a museum, if they would realize that they have actually a strong brand, for instance as the MoMA does, you just stick to the brand. I think that the MoMA would never ever, let's say, completely redesign their identity. Because, why would they? It's not necessary.
Wiel Arets Would you say because they probably are the four members, or four business men, or the four bought members or business men, who understand that the firm, MoMA, has to benefit from the identity.
Armand Mevis Maybe. But I also think that in America, how I experienced it with the MCA, it's a much huger undertaking to change an identity. In our meetings, in our sessions with the Stedelijk, it was a very small committee, and decisions were made almost in a very informal way, based on trust. I don't want to say that the MCA didn't have trust, but they involved trustees, for instance. Well, at the Stedelijk they didn't involve trustees. Just to make the people on the table bigger, to create a bigger support, also means, I think, that also of a time, if the director of the MCA maybe leaves, it doesn't immediately mean that everything will change. Because it's supported by a much bigger team, and I think that's probably a difference between American situation and European situation. Also because, let's say, the museums here, are, I don't think, funded by the government, but most of the time funded by people who support the museum with their own money, so they also have a say there.
Wiel Arets What I experienced in this project, if you had a strong idea from the beginning, where Bas [Princen] with new photos and whatever. But the idea you had from the beginning, is there. And I think that's really, really important. And I think that was a question of control. I think, you don't work to have control, but you put a strong idea on the table, you see that in the process, the idea gets stronger, by the contributions, no? So, what struck me, when you said in the beginning, you have to make choices, and "I only work with ten fonts because I can't remember all the others", so, to limit yourself, is a strength.
Armand MevisMevis: Yeah, because it means that you don't have to consider, maybe, a lot of options, which are there for a young and beginning designer, because everything is still possible. But you know that there are many things, let's say, you don't even want to go there anymore. Because either you've seen it, or you have no interest in it. But, in the area where you want to operate, you can actually maybe in a more precise or maybe deeper way, try to either improve things, or to be sharper. And when for instance, I propose an idea for this book, I don't even think that it was maybe a very exceptional idea, but it was just a very simple idea. But then I think, to make that idea work, you have to stick to it. As soon as you don't stick to that idea, then since it's just such a small thing, then there is nothing anymore. So then, there is also something to defend. That's where also, the amount of, how much of that can be negotiated, I think sometimes there is not so much to negotiate about, especially when the things you bring in, are already pretty limited already. And if you go to a situation like the MCA, where it's much more... Kind of, I don't want to say richer, but there are more elements, that also means that you can actually negotiate about these elements. You can either replace it or you can leave it out, or you can... so you can do things. Because it doesn't depend only on one thing.